This month, BA Bake Club takes inspiration from a certain popular chain restaurant for our own take on flaky, cheesy biscuits. This version is transformed with the help of Old Bay seasoning. Hosts and senior Test Kitchen editors Shilpa Uskokovic and Jesse Szewczyk make the case for why biscuits are a must-have for any occasion. As Shilpa puts it, “Anything bread can do…a biscuit can do better.”
Jesse and Shilpa also tackle listener questions. And iconic baker and bestselling cookbook author Cheryl Day—a biscuit guru who made them everyday for 22 years in her bakery—stops by the clubhouse. Cheryl’s advice for the best biscuit is simple: “I would say: practice, practice, practice…then take notes.”
We’d love to hear from you! You can send your questions to us via our Substack chat, by emailing us at bakeclub@bonappetit.com, or commenting on each month’s recipe.
Jesse Szewczyk: I'm Jesse Szewczyk.
Shilpa Uskokovic: And I'm Shilpa Uskokovic.
JS: We are both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appétit.
SU: And this is BA Bake Club.
JS: Bake Club is Bon Appétit's community of confident, curious bakers.
SU: We're creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.
JS: Every month we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept that we think you should know.
SU: Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have or pictures of your finished creations.
JS: And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe.
SU: The March Bake Club recipe for chocolate Guinness cake is live now on bonappetit.com, and we'll tell you a little bit more about it at the end of this episode.
JS: But today we're going to be talking about a savory bake, the perfect flaky cheesy accompaniment to any meal. Shilpa, it is your cheddar biscuits with Old Bay. So Shilpa, why these biscuits?
SU: Jesse, I feel like you have to answer the question.
JS: It was a loaded question.
SU: Yes. The idea for the Cheddar Bay biscuits originally sprung from you.
JS: It did. It did. It was the result of a long brainstorm. I said, "What if Red Lobster biscuits were flaky?" Then next thing you know, I was on vacation and the onus fell on Shilpa to execute the idea.
SU: Yes, I think we succeeded in making a very flaky, very tasty, very, very, very cheesy biscuit
JS: From there magic was made.
SU: Yes.
JS: Amazing. So I think it's time. Let's get our how-to music playing. Oh, there it is. Shilpa, can you walk us through kind of the basic steps of your recipe?
SU: This one is a particularly easy recipe for a Bake Club recipe. And to make your biscuit dough, you start with your dry ingredients, flour, some leavening. I added a bit of sugar just to season everything along with Old Bay, my very favorite. Also some garlic powder, parsley, and then of course the main component, which is plenty of butter. And to make these biscuits flaky, this is the important step where you cut the butter into the dry ingredients, but you leave them in slightly bigger chunks. And then once that's done, you moisten the dough. I use buttermilk for its acidity. I think it really works well with the cheese that I add. And then you bring this dough together, and for the flakiest, flakiest biscuits, I end up laminating them. So I end up folding the dough on top of itself a couple times before you punch out the circles, chill it for a little bit and bake.
JS: Okay, amazing. I've actually had several of Shilpa's biscuits. These are not your first biscuits for BA. You had garlic bread biscuits a couple of Thanksgivings ago, and those were also a flaky dough.
SU: Yes.
JS: So talk to us just about your development process with biscuits. I mean, I always say I can't make a biscuit, but Shilpa can make a biscuit.
SU: No, that's...
JS: No, I can't. There's something... You know some things-
SU: There's no way.
JS: Some things you're just, you have the physical ability, the knowledge to do, and it's just not one of my strong suits.
SU: I disagree with you, but-
JS: Whatever.
SU: But I would love to tell you more about my biscuit process.
JS: Please.
SU: First of all, I love biscuits. I think everybody should know how to make biscuits because I feel like they give you the same reward as homemade bread, but much, much easier, quicker.
JS: Quicker too. Much faster.
SU: Yeah. Much faster. And there's something about pulling out, especially when it comes to flaky biscuits, pulling out a tray of them and presenting them to people, that always blows their mind. So to make these, I started off, Jesse, because these were based on your great suggestion of Red Lobster Cheddar Bay biscuits. So I started off by asking Inés, our test kitchen manager, to get us a box of the Red Lobster mix because I wanted to see what it's all about.
JS: Level setting, yes.
SU: Yes. So we got it in, baked it. And I want to clarify, the Red Lobster biscuit is a drop biscuit, which you mix everything and you simply scoop the batter onto a baking pan, and then you bake it and you top it off with this really delicious garlic and parsley butter. And I think the most interesting part of this was when I had the biscuit, I realized that there's no seasoning.
JS: There's no Old Bay.
SU: Yes. In my mind, the bay was always like Old Bay, the seasoning, the paprika and celery salt seasoning that you often find in a tin or a jar. So I was really surprised when these were just plain biscuits with a very, admittedly very delicious garlic butter on top. So when it came time for me to make my version, I said, okay, let's bring Old Bay into it and give the bay an actual seasoning. And from there it was pretty easy. I did base it off of my garlic bread biscuits, which I developed for Thanksgiving a while ago. And the thing about a biscuit is it is very forgiving. And then I love biscuits because they offer you the opportunity to flavor them the way you want. In this one, I used lots of cheddar. I think I used a half pound of cheddar. And I think I only got eight biscuits. So it's like an ounce of cheddar per biscuit, which is a lot, and Old Bay. But you could use any other cheese that you want or any other spice mix. Though these are called cheddar biscuits with Old Bay, they can really be any cheese biscuit with any seasoning. And I hope readers can take this as a framework to make their own biscuits
JS: And Shilpa, you fold your dough.
SU: I do.
JS: What does this mean?
SU: Okay, folding is the technique to get flaky biscuits, and it's very similar to what I call for in my pie crust, which is called actually Perfect Pie Crust.
JS: It is perfect. It is. I mean, I talk about this on every episode of Bake Club.
SU: And then it's the same pie crust we ran in August of last year. But it's the folding which creates flakes because what the folding... Think of when you're making croissants, which I know a lot of people-
JS: Just remember the last time you made croissants.
SU: Hold on, Jesse. Hold on. I'm trying to say none of us ever make it at home, but I feel like most people have an understanding, most bakers have an understanding of what the process involves. Like you're sort of trapping butter between these sheets of flour.
JS: Sure.
SU: And that's essentially what you are doing here when you fold as well. It's a very rough and dirty technique that's similar to lamination. And essentially what you're doing is you're trapping these bits of butter between layers of dough so that when you go to bake it, the butter then from the heat of the oven, the expands and the steam pushes everything up and out and creates these nice flaky layers.
JS: So your last biscuits were square?
SU: Yes.
JS: These are round.
SU: Yes.
JS: Now, this was a controversial topic in the test kitchen.
SU: Yes.
JS: What's going on here?
SU: Listen, I just wanted them to be round. I wanted them to be, I don't know, I had this image in my mind of round biscuits in a cloth napkin.
JS: You did mention that several times.
SU: Yes. Just presented to you like a steaming basket of biscuits. The last biscuits, which we keep referring to, the Thanksgiving garlic bread biscuits, that was expressly developed for Thanksgiving, where you're really trying to be efficient, you're trying to make the most number of biscuits you can make, and there's 10,000 things in the oven. You really don't want to be using a cutter to cut out perfect circles of tiny biscuits. So for that one, I simply took a knife and cut the dough block into squares or rectangles, what have you. And that's a very efficient way to approach shaping biscuits because there are no offcuts and there's no wastage. And I still love that technique. And a lot of people, or I would say some of our readers did end up doing that with these biscuits. They just ended up cutting them into as a grid. But for these, I want to make them sort of the centerpiece. So I figured.
JS: So you said, "Screw efficiency."
SU: Yes.
JS: And, "We're going for drama."
SU: Yes, absolutely.
JS: You know what? Sure. Sure. And what about the height? How tall are these and are they visibly flaky?
SU: They're very flaky. These are, they have little bends of... They're kind of peeling apart on the edges.
JS: Like an accordion.
SU: Like an accordion, yes, indeed. And interesting question about the height, because these are tall biscuits, but that's kind of a double-edged sword. I call for the biscuits to be rolled out to about an inch, the dough to be rolled out to about an inch before the circles are cut. And that's about the maximum you can take them to ensure a nice tall biscuit, but any taller, and then they tend to topple over because there's not enough structure for the biscuit to hold the layers. So I feel like in this recipe, I optimized the height of the dough to get nice, tall, dramatic biscuits before they topple over.
JS: Sure, sure, sure. Okay. And going back to the Old Bay, I know this was something that maybe perplex some people, especially maybe people outside of the US.
SU: Yeah.
JS: What is Old Bay?
SU: Old Bay is a very particular mixture of mostly paprika, garlic powder and very importantly celery salt. And then there's a bunch of other herbs and spices, which they, it's proprietary and secret.
JS: Secret stuff,
SU: But it actually originated in Baltimore.
JS: But it's very commonly associated with like seafood boils.
SU: Yes.
JS: That's what I think of at least.
SU: Seafood boils, and I think of them, potato chips, which is how that was my first introduction to Old Bay. And the New Yorker has a lovely article on the origins of Old Bay.
JS: It has fascinating history. Yes.
SU: Which maybe we can link in the show notes. And the reason I gravitated towards Old Bay for these particular biscuits is because I was so stuck on the Red Lobster original being called Cheddar Bay. So I was like, it has to be Cheddar Old Bay. Because I realized in the Red Lobster one, the bay is just like some imaginary bay.
JS: It's just for vibes.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: It's literally just for vibes.
JS: Sure.
SU: We are going to take a quick break.
JS: And when we get back we'll answer some listener questions about the biscuits.
SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
JS: Okay, Shilpa, are you ready for some listener questions?
SU: Absolutely.
JS: Okay. So our first is from Katie. Katie says, "Made the biscuits today. So good. I really had to search for the Old Bay. I found it at the third store, and it was the last one on the shelf. I must live in a Bake Club dense area." Okay. Katie's being generous here. Thank you, Katie. "My biscuits all baked differently. Some got taller, some flatter, and some did a Leaning Tower of Pisa thing. My guess is that my butter wasn't evenly distributed in the dough. Still tastes amazing." And then also a listener, Michelle had a similar thing happen. They said, "They kind of shot sideways after baking. I saw layers, but the top didn't go up. I felt like my second laminated fold was the culprit. Any suggestions? Because they were divine flavor-wise." And then also a third possibly related one from Tim, unrelated [inaudible 00:11:48]
SU: Unrelated to Jesse's [inaudible 00:11:51].
JS: Okay. Tim says, "Some of the biscuits stayed nicely cylindrical, but others spread out at the base. Any idea what's going on there? Based on the cutter size, the cylindrical biscuits spread at the top a bit and others only spread at the base."
SU: Wow. These are great questions and certainly things that I have experienced too when making biscuits. There isn't one particular reason. There's a multitude of reasons that this could happen where your biscuits tend to topple over or they bake sort of like with a flared base and then almost like a cone. So let me go through all of the possible things that could happen. One, I like what Katie said, she was like, "My guess is that the butter wasn't evenly distributed in the dough," and that could be a reason. Sometimes if you leave your butter in super big chunks, it'll interact with the dough in a weird way. And the first thing you will see if your butter hasn't been broken down into small enough pieces and distributed to the dough evenly, is you'll see a lot of butter melting on your sheet tray.
JS: Like oozes out.
SU: And your biscuits won't be very flaky. They'll be almost like greasy or dense. So that's one indicator to know if it was a butter issue.
JS: Which I feel like is common because I feel like people are told and they're so scared of overworking butter with pie crust and scones and anything in this realm.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: That was my biggest breakthrough, Jesse, when I was learning to make pie crust,
JS: Which is very similar to biscuits.
SU: Which, yes.
JS: It is. Yes.
SU: Pie crust and biscuits are very, very identical technique-wise. And it's all about the butter size. And I agree with you, don't leave the butter in super huge chunks.
JS: Yeah. I'd rather you overwork it, honestly.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yeah.
SU: I would say the ideal... What do you think, Jesse? The ideal butter size would be somewhere between a lentil to maybe like a chickpea.
JS: I was going to say a pea.
SU: Oh yeah, I like that.
JS: I feel like a pea is like the middle ground.
SU: Yes.
JS: A green pea.
SU: Yes. No piece should be larger than like a green pea.
JS: Yeah, I think so. So pretty small, honestly.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah. But still intact.
SU: And the way to know if it is the butter is if you're experiencing a lot of leakage on your sheet tray, then you know your butter is in very big chunks, which can lead to a dry or dense biscuit, which also loses shape. Another reason a biscuit could topple sideways in particular is if the dough was rolled too tall, then the biscuit just doesn't have enough structure and it will topple over as it bakes, as it rises and bakes. So I think I call for the dough to be patted into a rectangle about one inch in height. And I found that that's about the maximum that you can go. And if you have a very large cutter, if you're making a very big round or if you're simply cutting large rectangles of dough, then it's fine to go a little bit higher. But if you're using a smaller round cutter, then it's just the physics of it. You can't go super tall and small. It's like a skyscraper. The physics doesn't work. So I would say make sure your dough block is no taller than an inch. And then related is if you're using a lot of flour in your folding process. So if you're dusting your dough block with a lot of flour and you fold, then what this flour is going to do is it's going to prevent the dough from sticking together. So when you punch it out and you bake, it's going to sort of slip along the fault line of that flour.
JS: So you want them to be defined and stick but not stick.
SU: Okay. To simplify it, I will say if you're using a generous amount of flour to dust your dough block when you're folding it for whatever reason, maybe you find it a bit sticky, maybe it's you just need a little bit of extra flour. Just make sure that when you're doing your folds, to brush off that extra flour so that you're not trapping a lot of the dry flour in between the layers of dough.
JS: And what about the flared base?
SU: I think that one, that one I'm a little stumped by, and I would say the reason might be the size of the cutter. I feel like if you use a cutter that's like an inch, inch and a half and less, I feel like you're going to see more of that conical shape. I feel like the smaller you go in cutter size, you're going to see that conical sort of shape and uneven rise.
JS: Interesting.
SU: I also wonder if it is the placement of the biscuit, like bottom or top when you cut the biscuits.
JS: Oh, like you flip it?
SU: Yeah, if it flips and then which side goes up. But I also think another big reason why your biscuit could be rising unevenly is the pressure that you exert on the cutter. When you're pressing down with your round cutter, you want to be very even and press down with all of your fingers or your palm rather than with your thumbs.
JS: So it's not like a... It's just a...
SU: Love it.
JS: Okay, great.
SU: This is a very unhinged episode of Bake club.
JS: I hope that helps.
SU: Yes. Even pressure when you're pressing down on the biscuit cutter really will help ensure that everything rises around the circumference evenly.
JS: Okay, so many answers to this one.
SU: Yes. It's multiple reasons. Yeah.
JS: That makes sense. Okay, next we have a four-part question from Meg. She really breaks down a lot of the issues people were having with this bake, so let's get into it. Okay. Meg says, "These taste incredible and my top three favorite Bake Club bakes with the tiramisu, basque cheesecake, and monkey bread."
SU: Ooh.
JS: Okay, two out of three for Shilpa. "I only had regular cheddar, but I bet they're even better with a sharper aged cheddar. I also swapped green onions for parsley." That sounds good.
SU: Mm-hmm.
JS: She says, "Parsley [inaudible 00:17:58]."
SU: Same, Meg.
JS: Oh, I like parsley. Anyways, that's why Meg picked two out of three. Anyways, I'm not mad. "I baked over three days, just a few at a time, freezing the unbaked leftovers. Okay, a few issues. One, I didn't get the layers this time. Maybe my ingredients weren't cold enough when folding? No complaints. Still delicious. Two, how do you achieve the tall sides after baking? Mine lost all of their and sharpness, they just squished during baking. Three, I used a 2.5 inch biscuit cutter on an eight by six rectangle of dough, but I got 12 biscuits all taller than an inch unbaked. The only other change I made in the recipe was grating the cheese on the largest holes of a box grater. Could that have made a difference? I measured everything with a kitchen scale per Bake Club canon." Okay. Meg. "Number four. Last question I promise. Should I have baked longer for more color?" I'm thinking probably. And Meg has included a photo and we are looking at it now.
SU: Yes.
JS: I will say the picture looks like the Red Lobster biscuit.
SU: Okay, so you can see one biscuit centered in Meg's photo and there aren't defined layers.
JS: No. It looks like a drop biscuit.
SU: It looks like a drop biscuit. That's correct. I mean, I love the flecks of scallion, green onion in there you can see that yellow cheese, some of it is bubbled out. All of that looks great.
JS: Maybe start with number four, easiest one. Do you think these needed to be baked longer based on color,
SU: Based on the photo in which Meg's biscuits are a bit pale gold, I will say yes, longer bake time would benefit, but also I'm not seeing the bottom of these biscuits, so I can't be-
JS: Oh, that's fair. That's fair.
SU: ... very precise. I would need to see the bottom of the biscuits as well, because ovens act differently and sometimes the heating element on the bottom is stronger. I think they could benefit from a little bit more bake time, but then again, that's not a very scientific answer.
JS: Sure.
SU: Can we just go to number three?
JS: Okay. Number three..
SU: Because I'm really perplexed
JS: And she says she used a 2.5 inch biscuit cutter on an eight by six rectangle of dough, "But I got 12 biscuits."
SU: There's no way you can get more than like eight biscuits though. And that's after, to get those other two biscuits, you need to re-roll your scraps. So that's confounding me because you can tell that Meg is very precise.
JS: Maybe she means after she re-rolled them,
SU: Perhaps.
JS: Yeah. Meg, I don't know, the way Meg's talking to me, I know I'm not going to question her math.
SU: Yeah, I mean you can see that Meg has baked a lot of stuff from us and she's used the kitchen scale, so that's the one thing that's tripping me up, I'll be honest, about the yield of biscuits because one of my points that I was going to make was maybe the dough was rolled too thin, that was way less than an inch, so that could be it. And as for the tall sides and not getting the layers, which are point one and two in Meg's questions, I'm finding this one a bit hard. I don't know. I think this one might actually be a case where the butter was overworked and completely disappeared and these are almost like-
JS: Scone.
SU: ... short. Yes. They're like shortbread or scones at this point rather than having any flakes.
JS: Interesting. I think I agree actually, because I think that the larger chunks would've seen some visible definition on the sides.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Something about the way that these are sort of sloped inwards makes me believe that either the butter was overworked or there's something off with the leavening. Okay, Meg, I hope we answered some of your questions. I think you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to follow up with Meg on our Substack and get a little bit more context for her question so I can be more accurate in my diagnosis.
JS: This is a good one though. Yeah. Okay, great. Our next question is about substitutions, and it comes from Roberto. Roberto writes, "Any ideas on how to substitute Old Bay? It is not available where I live."
SU: Oh, okay. I would say think of the main flavors of Old Bay, which are paprika, garlic powder, and celery salt. I would also say a little bit of sugar and some dried thyme. Doing some combination of those ingredients will get you a nice approximation, but also don't sweat it. If you don't have Old Bay and don't want to recreate all of this, simply use a heap of dried paprika or the equivalent amount of dried paprika.
JS: I agree.
SU: Or use half the amount of garlic powder. Use another kind of spice mix that you want that works well with cheese and check the back of the box. If it has salt, then you can go with the same amount approximately as in the original recipe. If you feel it doesn't have salt, then add a little bit more to the biscuit dough. But I don't think the Old Bay is make or break here.
JS: I agree. And also, as a little bonus, Meg did write also, "Just want to say, I'm so glad Bon Appétit has a bunch of recipes using Old Bay. Just starting the biscuits now, but was already wondering what I was going to do with the rest of the container." And yes, we do have a bunch of recipes and we can link that in the show notes.
SU: We can.
JS: So put it to you. Okay. Finally, one more from Christina. Christina writes, I'm not super familiar with Old Bay and don't eat a lot of biscuits. What kind of meal are folks planning with these? Breakfast sandwiches?" Ooh. "A side to soup?" Oh. "I would love to hear thoughts and ideas."
SU: Just for everybody, the sound effects are not Christina's. They're Jesse's own.
JS: Yeah, I made them my own, sorry. Christina.
SU: Oh, what can you eat these biscuits with? Honestly, just split on their own with a little bit of butter or pimento cheese.
JS: Oh, pimento cheese. Wow.
SU: Yeah. With soup. Yeah, absolutely with soup. As a breakfast sandwich, 100%. Like a little slice of ham, a little bit more cheddar.
JS: I like breakfast sandwich. I like a little sausage patty.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Okay, sure.
SU: Yes. You know you can even bake them off and have them with chili, for instance.
JS: Chili. Nice, nice. Okay.
SU: If you're a bit daring, you could put them on top of your chili, like a little chili cobbler.
JS: A chili cobbler.
SU: Is that Midwestern enough for you, Jesse?
JS: I mean, no, we do cinnamon rolls with our chili.
SU: Oh yeah.
JS: That's what the internet tells me. I feel like I don't quite believe it, but..
SU: What else, Jesse, would you have biscuits with?
JS: Chowder?
SU: Oh, I like that. That's very New England of you. Chowder.
JS: Chowder.
SU: Lovely. There we go, Christina, I hope we've given you-
JS: Honestly, anything you want.
SU: Anything bread can do, a biscuit can do better.
JS: There you go.
SU: Except maybe peanut butter and jelly.
JS: That'd be interesting. Yeah. Pepper jelly.
SU: Ooh yeah. Pepper jelly.
JS: There go. Okay.
SU: Yes. Now he's talking.
JS: We've peaked. We've peaked.
SU: We're going to take another break.
JS: And when we get back, we're going to introduce you to a baker you should know.
SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
JS: It is one of my favorite parts of the show. It is time for us to introduce you to a baker whose work we think our listeners should know about.
SU: And in an episode that's all about biscuits, we would be remiss not to invite a true icon of Southern and heritage baking. New York Times bestselling author of cookbooks, including the Back in the Day Bakery Cookbook, and Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking, it's Cheryl Day herself. Welcome to BA Bake Club.
Cheryl Day: Oh, thank you. It's so great to be here with you both.
JS: We are so excited to have you. We are all fans here in the test kitchen and this will be great.
CD: Aww. Thank you.
SU: Yes. You are such a legend and we are blessed to have you here.
JS: No, truly.
CD: Thank you. I feel exactly the same way about both of you.
JS: Oh.
SU: Thank you. Cheryl, you call yourself a legacy baker.
CD: I do.
SU: Can you explain what that means for some listeners who may not be very familiar with that?
CD: Sure. It may be a term I've coined myself actually.
SU: Love that.
CD: But I like to think of myself as a legacy baker because all of my work is based around my family upbringing, my ancestors, my heritage, and I just really love to pay homage to those that came before me and give them the reverence that I think they deserve.
JS: I love that. No, I feel like we talk about recipes being long form, and this is a perfect example of that.
SU: And baking especially, I think it is-
JS: Baking is long form.
SU: Yeah. And it is something that you really pass down and it's so mired in tradition.
CD: Absolutely. In so many cultures.
JS: Cheryl, how did you first encounter these historical recipes and fall in love with them?
CD: Well, I lost my mother at a young age. I was 22, and I was very fortunate that she left me a notebook filled with stories. She wrote it in epistolary letter form, letters to me and my sister about our family history. And much of that journal, if you will, included recipes. And also before that, growing up I realized early on that spending time with my mother meant hanging out in the kitchen, hearing our stories and baking with her. So that became a really sweet time for me.
SU: What is one of your earliest baking memories with your mom?
CD: Oh, pies. It was all about, she loved making pies, sweet potato pies, lemon meringue was her specialty. And I love making lemon meringue pie now, but there was a time that I didn't think I'd ever rise to the level of her pies, so I just never made them until when I started writing cookbooks, I knew that I needed to honor that recipe. And so I started making... I didn't have the exact recipe, so I was going from memory and trying to recreate that recipe. And I remember the first time that I did, it just brought so many memories back, those taste memories, and it's still probably my favorite pie.
SU: Aww. Wow. You had a bakery in Savannah, Back in the Day Bakery.
CD: I did.
SU: For over 20 years.
CD: Yeah, 22 years to be exact. And we decided, my husband, Griff and I, we started out doing artisan baking, but pretty quickly we decided that we wanted to tell our personal story. My husband's from Minneapolis, he has Norwegian background, so we did lots of cardamom and lots of his family recipes. But somehow it turned into mostly my recipes because just the Southern canon and American baking just really started moving forward in our story.
JS: And Cheryl, I have to ask, you personally made the biscuits every day for something 20 years?
CD: Yeah. It is true. I mean, there were times when I was on book tour because obviously I've written several books, and so I had to leave and it was very nerve-racking because I had a great team, but people feared those biscuits. And so we tried all kinds of tricks to see if we could make them in advance or what could we do. And they definitely rose to the occasion, but I would say most every day until the very last day, I was making those biscuits every single day.
SU: Wow.
CD: People expected a lot out of me.
JS: It's like, we really did get the perfect guest for this episode.
SU: We really did.
JS: Truly. Jackpot.
SU: On that note, I want to know now what, to you, makes a perfect biscuit?
CD: Oh, that's such a great question, Shilpa. So for me, I think that the perfect biscuit is... Obviously it's heritage for me, so it goes way back. But I think of light airy layers, not just layers, but they're light and airy, delicate. They just kind of pull apart. There's a perfect balance of slightly sweet and salty. They're pretty salt forward, mine are. Just really, I think it's really hard too, and I know this obviously for fact, because I've also tasted a lot of biscuits, and sometimes they just miss the mark for my expectation of being able to be tender and have light and airy layers, delicate, that pull apart rather than just flaky, and I heard someone describe a biscuit they had that they enjoyed and they said it was chewy. I kind of cringed.
JS: Cutting.
CD: Yeah, that's not my idea. But I will say I enjoy all kinds of biscuits, but to me, that's what I think of as the perfect biscuit.
JS: And if you can share, what are the techniques? Or is there a specific technique that you use to get there?
CD: Yeah, I mean, I think it first starts with the very quality of the simple ingredients that you use. Buttermilk, I'm very particular about the buttermilk that I use and the good quality butter that I use. But I just think the technique, it's almost like a craft to me. I decided early on when I thought about bringing my grandmother's biscuits to the bakery that I wanted to, and it took many, many, many, many tries, believe me, to get there. I mean, I did a mix of butter. I tried butter and shortening, and I landed on all butter. But for me, it's just the technique, layering the biscuits. I'm sure you all probably do something similar, but I start out in the bowl with the butter. I cut cubes because what I'm going for is when I'm coating the flour and the butter, I am not going for exact size of the butter cubed in. I want it to have texture from the start, from the get-go. And so I don't grate butter or anything like that. I cut it in with my hands, flattening some pieces. And then I do, once I've added the buttermilk, it's just such a textural thing. It's looking and seeing, using all your senses, like all of my favorite baking. I make my biscuits very similar to how I make my pie dough. I then roll it out and then I start to do these kind of folds and stacking the layers, but making sure that I'm not overworking, just really paying attention to the feel and texture of the dough. It sounds so woo-woo kind of, right.
JS: It is though. There's certain baked goods that are woo-woo. It's so tactile. It's hard to, it's something you know with your hands.
CD: Yeah, it is. And you can see the difference. Obviously I was making them every day, and so if I had to use an ingredient that maybe I remember a couple of times, maybe my buttermilk guy, his truck broke down or something, so I had to do a substitute and darn it, if I would not know the difference.
JS: Oh, wow.
CD: With how the buttermilk felt so into my dough. So yeah, I just love it. Love making biscuits and pie dough.
JS: Okay, Cheryl, we are going to get to the portion where you're going to help us tackle a listener question.
CD: Okay.
JS: And this one is from Mariana, and it is related to humidity in baking.
CD: Oh, I know about humidity.
JS: We thought you might.
SU: We thought, yes.
JS: We're like, "Get her in." Okay. Mariana wrote, "My dough ended up being way too humid with the amount of buttermilk suggested. I thought they wouldn't turn out right, but after baking, they pulled through. Surprisingly, the flakiness is there, even though I wasn't able to do any folds, any suggestions?" When we first got this question, it led Shilpa and I down this whole rabbit hole of the concept of humidity in baking.
SU: Yes. And we wanted to know your thoughts.
CD: Okay. Well, I'd love to hear yours too, but it's something that I have to battle. Good lord, when we make meringues or something like that in the summer, it's like a whole thing. But for biscuits, the refrigerator is your friend. That's what I would say. I mean, once you start going on the path of mastering something like a biscuit, I think that you learn how it's supposed to look and feel. And it sounds like this listener did realize that something wasn't quite right. But when it starts to get too hot or humid, that's when I kind of go into the walk-in and to try to get a chill, because then it starts to sweat and the texture just gets weird. So yeah, you can definitely use the refrigerator as your friend in between. What were your thoughts?
SU: I think we agree and we feel like certainly temperature affects something like a biscuit. As you said, if it's hot outside, your butter is prone to melting faster. And the way to combat it, again, as you suggested, is stick it in the fridge. But we were torn about humidity itself. You know how many times people are like, "Oh, if it's humid outside, the flour will absorb more water, so you use less water in your dough." We don't believe in that.
JS: Meanwhile, I grew up in Illinois and live in New York. I'm like, what do I know?
SU: Well, I believe in heat, but not humidity. I don't think so.
CD: You know what I think it kind of boils down to, because when I was working on the biscuit recipe in the cookbook, I feel like it is always the same amount of buttermilk. It has been consistent. Granted, I'm obviously in the same climate, but I've had a lot of people have success with it. But I do think it boils down to the rate of absorption when you're... How you're adding, because I have stood right next to bakers that I've been teaching, and they make pie dough right next to me, or biscuits, and I see that it starts to get wetter faster just based on how they're adding it. If that makes sense.
SU: Yeah. That they're adding it too much.
CD: Exactly. Too quickly without letting the flour, giving it a chance to absorb properly. And so that's why we can't just, you don't add it all in at once. You're just kind of gradually adding it in, and so you would add it and start to learn how much you need to add. But I find... Well, I'll take that back. Sometimes if it is less humid, maybe you'll add a little bit less, or different climates people may have to add a little bit less. But yeah, just paying attention to that rate of absorption, how you're adding it and the timing of it, if that makes sense.
JS: Yeah, that makes sense. Did you ever work in the walk-in making your biscuits?
CD: I was tempted.
JS: Yeah. I was like, I feel like I'd be tempted too.
CD: Yeah. I was tempted, but no, I never did. I mean, I worked such early hours, so I would kind of beat the heat as much as possible. But once those ovens turn on, yeah, you don't mind-
JS: It's over.
CD: ... taking the time to, "Okay, maybe I'll clean the walk-in today." But no, I never actually had to work in there.
SU: If you had to put all of your advice on a silver platter and hand it to our listener, is there one or two things that home bakers can do to level up their biscuit game?
CD: Well, I would say practice, practice, practice.
SU: I love that.
JS: Yeah. That's good.
Cheryl Day: That is really the art to mastery, don't you think?
SU: I agree.
JS: It's like a sport.
CD: It is. I mean, biscuits and baking in general is such a craft, especially certain things. For me, I really think... Well, I could think of a lot of things. I think cakes, I think pie dough, I think biscuits. I always try to tell people the only way to get better is to make the thing. The way to get better is to do it all the time. And then pay attention. Find a recipe that obviously you trust and read that recipe over and over until you really truly understand it. Cold ingredients for biscuits are key for sure. And use the refrigerator as your friend. If you need to put things, if your hands are warm. I happen to... I'm a true baker, I have cold, cold hands all the time. But if you have warm hands, then you need to use the refrigerator as your friend. I've known people too that they'll put their ingredients in the walk-in, and that is helpful if it's super hot.
JS: That makes sense.
CD: And then I think take notes. So this is a big silver platter, isn't it?
SU: No, I love it. Yes.
JS: It needs to be big.
SU: No, these are real gems. Honestly. These are great tips.
CD: I hope they're helpful.
JS: No, they're great.
CD: They've helped me over the years.
SU: Yeah, they're great. I really like when you say practice and then taking notes, those are invaluable.
JS: I do think the fridge is this tool that professionals use all the time, but we don't necessarily write recipes because like how do you write that?
SU: Yeah.
CD: Yeah, that's true.
SU: And home kitchens are different. I know I don't have the space in my fridge to fit a sheet tray.
CD:That's true.
SU: Like a half sheet tray, so it is a different thing.
CD: Yeah. I have things propped up in the freezer and-
SU: Oh my gosh.
JS: The freezer's scary.
SU: The freezer is scary.
JS: One more. How do you like eating your biscuits? Shilpa and I were talking about this earlier, but do you have any accompaniments? What is your ideal biscuit eating experience?
CD: Oh, I love jam.
JS: Nice.
CD: I'm a jam, butter, of course. I do love a good sausage jam biscuit.
JS: Sausage.
SU: Sausage and jam. Okay.
CD: I like a really good breakfast sausage that's sage-y and delicious. I think that with, I make a grape jam that I make... I love to make jam.
SU: Oh. Grape and sausage sounds so nice.
CD: And it's so good. It's so good. Or blueberry. I've done a blueberry rose jam that I made, and I love that. Yeah. So that's my ultimate biscuit, I would say. A little pad of butter, a biscuit, sausage and jam.
SU: Wow.
JS: I'm aligned.
SU: I'm aligned.
JS: I endorse.
SU: We love it.
JS: Yeah, love that.
SU: And now Cheryl, we have some rapid-fire questions for you.
CD: Oh, okay.
SU: So if you're ready.
CD: Sure.
SU: Okay. The oldest recipe you found that still turns out great.
CD: Pound cake.
SU: That's a good one.
CD: Cold oven pound cake to be exact.
JS: Oh, okay. Shilpa and I actually talk about this a lot.
SU: Yes, we do.
JS: It's like one of our things we just keep bringing up.
SU: We love a cold oven pound cake. It's so mysterious.
JS: It is. Okay. Who is your baking phone-a-friend when you run into a tricky issue?
CD: Oh, Nicole Rucker. Yeah. Nicole Rucker, the pie queen of Los Angeles.
SU: A great friend to have. What is the most underrated ingredient when it comes to baking?
CD: Underrated? Well, I would say the ingredient that I'm probably the most picky about that literally brought me to tears during the pandemic because I couldn't get it, is baking powder.
SU: Oh my gosh.
JS: Interesting. Interesting.
SU: That's so good. What about baking powder?
CD: I'm very particular about my baking powder, and I always knew I was, but I couldn't get it.
SU: Do you have a brand preference? Tell us more.
CD: I do. I like Rumford. That's my favorite.
SU: So when you change... I know it's supposed to be rapid-fire, but I'm so curious.
JS: Pause.
SU: Yes. When you switch to another brand of baking powder, is it the taste that you find different or is it the action?
CD: Both.
SU: Okay.
CD: Disaster. It was literal disaster.
JS: Wow.
SU: What.
CD: Yeah. Specifically for cakes.
SU: Whoa.
CD: It was, I don't even know. There was explosions happening, and it was just the way that it reacted to the ingredients, the buttermilk probably. Yeah. And also the taste.
SU: Okay. Shout out to Rumford Baking Powder.
CD: Yeah.
JS: Okay. I'll continue.
SU: Yes, we're back on the rapid-fire.
JS: We're back on the rapid-fire. Okay.
CD: Let's be rapid.
JS: What is the best compliment that you've ever received on a bake?
CD: The best compliment was that it made them cry because it reminded them of their mother.
SU: That is really a high compliment. It is so hard to make something that people have a very strong memory about. That's a great compliment.
CD: We also had someone who included us... Okay, I'm going off rapid-fire, but it's kind of the big deal.
JS: We've slowed it down.
CD: They included us in their obituary.
JS: Oh.
SU: Oh my God.
CD: Yeah, because that was their favorite thing to do. Well, their husband, she said about her husband. They used to come in every Friday and yeah, it was sweet.
JS: That's so lovely.
SU: Cheryl, thank you so much for being here.
CD: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
SU: You are a joy. You have inspired so many of us here in the test kitchen, and we would love for you to tell listeners where we can find you on the internet.
CD: You can find me @cherylday on Instagram or anywhere else on social media.
SU: Amazing.
JS: Love it. Thank you so much.
SU: Thank you, Cheryl.
CD: Thank you all for having me. It was so fun.
JS: That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club
SU: Jesse, can you tell our bakers about the March Bake Club recipe?
JS: Yes. It is a chocolate Guinness cake. I feel like it is a classic March recipe. But this one, I feel like there's some fun techniques in here.
SU: A lot.
JS: And it's better for it.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes. It's a really great chocolate cake. The texture is how I like chocolate cake, so maybe it is how you will too.
SU: Yeah, no, it's a lovely cake in this, the multi-flavor of the Guinness really gives it a different dimension. The frosting is delicious, it's beautiful. It's just a very simple makeable cake.
JS: And the key technique was actually popularized by one of our former Bake club guests, so that's a big hint. So anyways.
SU: Oh my gosh.
JS: Deep cut. Deep cut.
SU: Now I'm scratching my head about it. Okay. Any special equipment or ingredients that bakers should have on hand?
JS: No, and I feel like that's the cool thing about it. You don't need a mixer. Just have yourself a whisk, a spatula, a bowl, and you're good.
SU: And the Guinness, of course.
JS: And the Guinness, of course.
SU: Okay. Well, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through Jesse's amazing chocolate Guinness cake, send us your pictures and your questions. There are so many different ways to get in touch.
JS: You can comment on the recipe, on the Epicurious app or on the Bon Appétit website. Comment on our Substack or email us at bakeclub@bonappetit.com. And if you've made it and you loved it, rate and review the recipe on our site. We're your hosts, Jesse Szewczyk.
SU: And Shilpa Uskokovic.
JS: Our producer is Emily Elias, and we had editing by Michele O'Brien.
SU: Pran Bandi is our studio engineer.
JS: Research editing by Ryan Harrington and Marisa Malanga.
SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound.
JS: If you like the show, leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.
SU: And if you're not already part of the club, head to bonappetit.com/bakeclub to find all of the information you need to join.
JS: Thanks for listening to BA Bake club, and we'll see you next month.