ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco is joined by test kitchen editor Shilpa Uskokovic to help George learn to love cooking—and eating—plant-based proteins.
George trained as a chef but is at a loss for how to follow his doctor’s recent recommendation to cook more plant-based proteins after his diabetes diagnosis. His forays into cooking quinoa weren’t promising (in fact, George now refers to it as his culinary nemesis.) His attempts have been either soupy or burnt, acting on the instinct to cook it like a rice pilaf of sorts, using a brothy base of savory aromatics.
Chris brings in Shilpa to offer George some helpful tips for making quinoa that actually tastes good, and they also try to sell George on the larger world of plant-based options (hint: lentils!) that actually have far more protein. They recommend recipes like Chris’ Soy and Scallion Tofu Bowl, his recipe for Glazed Sweet Potatoes and Lentils, and the staff favorite Just-Keeps-Getting-Better Salad by Sarah Jampel.
Listen now to hear how it all went and whether George is now a plant protein believer!
Chris Morocco: Hey there, listeners, future callers and cooking enthusiasts. Welcome to Dinner SOS, the show where we help you save dinner or whatever you're cooking. I'm Chris Morocco, Food Director of Bon Appetit and Epicurious. Our caller this week is George. How are you doing, George?
George: I'm doing well. How are you doing today, Chef?
CM: Good. Whoa, Chef. Oh my goodness. All right, we're going formal. I love it. How are you doing?
G: I'm doing well. So long story short, this is actually a very, very embarrassing SOS because I'm a chef. It was just natural when you came on to call you Chef.
CM: George worked professionally in kitchens for years, but despite his training, there's an ingredient he just can't seem to get the hang of.
G: Quinoa is my nemesis. I cannot cook quinoa to save my life.
CM: Why quinoa? Well, George wants to increase the quantity of plants in his diet.
G: I spoke to my doctor and she was just saying that doing more plant-based proteins would help me in my diet. So I know quinoa is like the super food and stuff. I've tried making it. Either A, it has no flavor or B, like I'll try to make it salty like the sea. It doesn't work. I try to cook it a little bit like someone told me that I didn't let the kernel pop like you do a grit. So I tried to cook it longer with a little bit more water, and then it's just like a soupy mess that has no flavor. Or it'll still be soupy on top, but it's burning on the bottom, kind of like a sticky rice.
CM: Yep. So the last time you cooked quinoa, what happened?
G: So I actually tried to come up with my own recipe and I did pine nut, spinach, roasted red pepper, a little bit of onion and cooked down bacon. I started with the bacon, rendered out all the lard, moved the bacon off. Then I actually sauteed everything but the spinach and the pine nut in the bacon grease. Then I cooked the quinoa. And then toward the end I added in all the vegetables that I cooked and then the pine nuts and the bacon into the quinoa and tried to let it cook out and it almost was like a porridge. The bacon got really soggy, the spinach over wilted and then like I had this liquidy mess at the top, and the bottom was completely burnt.
CM: Nice. And so you were kind of trying to treat it almost like a rice pilaf almost of sorts in terms of sort of building it up with like a layer of kind of savory aromatics, et cetera.
G: Yes.
CM: And then you introduced quinoa and water and then you endeavored to cook that liquid out and turn the quinoa tender in the process. And what were you feeling at that time after putting all this effort into that dish?
G: That a five-year-old could out-cook me.
CM: Cool. And have you ever just made quinoa just on its own, just straight up, just cooked quinoa, water, maybe a little bit of salt?
G: Yes, and it's still crunchy.
CM: And this is like a real basic question next. When you say quinoa, what style of quinoa are you talking about?
G: I would mix it with white and red.
CM: A mix of white and red, like equal proportions or loosely?
G: Yeah, one-to-one.
CM: And so obviously like we're embarking on a process here. Describe to me your dream outcome.
G: One, make something that is actually edible, not burnt to the bottom of the pan.
CM: Good.
G: But also I'm on a health journey here and I want it so that I can get my diabetes under control. Like the most platonic idea of quinoa is something that can be in my repertoire that I'm not scared to use, for me and my girlfriend when we're together. And I can continue her along that paces of like she loves the plant-based foods and cooking more vegetables and salads and stuff and shying away from the heavier red meats and things of that nature.
CM: Got it.
G: But I do want to expand my knowledge of the plant-based so that I can still eat healthier and also still have that satiated feeling at the end of the meal.
CM: What other plant-based sources of protein have you tried making?
G: I've used seitan and I've used tempeh and I've tried to cook tofu, but I don't like the mushy texture really.
CM: All right, well listen, this is all super helpful. Yeah, we're going to think about what specific advice would be ideal to zero in on, but we can't wait to continue the conversation and we will be in touch about scheduling. Okay? Shilpa, do you make a lot of quinoa yourself?
Shilpa Uskokovic: I don't. I mean we used to cook it a few years ago and sometimes we still do, but I don't think I ever took a fancy to its taste and its texture. I do like it included in something. So when I find myself cooking quinoa these days, which is rare, it's usually mixed with other things.
CM: Now maybe you caught the same thing that I did from George's SOS. Sure, quinoa is high protein for a grain or, well, technically it's a seed, but because of how it's cooked, quinoa often gets lumped in with CM: But as a protein source full stop, not so much. So my colleague, Shilpa Uskokovic and I decided that sure, we'd give George some simple tips for cooking quinoa, but then we'd really sell him on some plant-based protein options that pack more of a punch like-
SU: George is in good hands.
CM: George is in really good hands. Okay? We've got a lot to go over. So we'll do a little bit more thinking. I'm thinking like, I don't want to assign you a lane with your service, but I want the conversation to be boom, quinoa, boom, everything else.
SU: Okay, got it.
CM: Here's how to be just like a little bit more of like a thoughtful plant-based chef. We're going to take a short break when we're back, Shilpa and I help George get his head in the plant-based protein game. Hey George, how are you?
G: I am well, Chef. How are you doing?
CM: I'm doing okay. And I am joined here by my colleague Shilpa, who I know you know.
G: Cool.
SU: Hi, George.
G: I'm having a fan moment. Hi Shilpa.
SU: What? Stop.
CM: Well listen, George, I listened to our initial conversation again and I was feeling like there was a little bit of a question behind the question. And we want to start by giving you some general kind of guidance on cooking quinoa because I think that's important. But Shilpa and I, when we discussed your SOS, we wanted to really kind of take a minute to expand your viewpoints on an appreciation of plant-based sources of protein because just for an example, quinoa has eight grams of protein per cup, whereas chickpeas have closer to 15 grams of protein, again, cooked, or lentils, which have actually closer to 18 grams of protein.
SU: That's a lot.
CM: And I think you can house a cup of lentils, no problem, whereas a cup of even perfectly cooked quinoa is starting to feel like work.
SU: Yeah, I agree with you.
CM: Like they should be paying you.
G: Well, I think also the problem that I'm having, especially when I cook the quinoa, is I think because in my mind it's like, "Oh, it's like couscous and it should have the consistency of couscous."
CM: Yeah, no. And so shilpa, I wanted to start there with the quinoa. So how can we reset on quinoa cookery? Because I think sometimes the package instructions can do you a bit dirty in terms of misleading people about what I think is the best way and I think what I think what you would agree is the best way to cook quinoa and many other pulses, grains, even rice on occasion. Hit me.
SU: Well, I was going to say I have two solutions potentially for this. One is the route I generally take when I'm not sure how a certain grain needs to be cooked, like I'm cooking something for the first time, but it's quinoa or sorghum or barley or whatever. I generally default to cooking it like a pasta, like a lot of water, salted water.
CM: Copious salted water.
SU: Yep.
CM: Abundant water.
SU: Abundant. Wow. All the words. And then you'll dump your grains, in this case quinoa, and then you cook it like pasta until you see the germ kind of like poking out.
CM: Like that little white thread.
SU: Tail.
CM: Tail.
SU: Yeah. I think that's a good indicator for quinoa in particular that it's close to being done. And then you drain it in a fine mesh sieve and let it sit for a while. And I think-
CM: In a sieve or do you return it to the pot?
SU: I just let it sit in the sieve and I think like all of the residual water drains out and it kind of fluffs and steams in there. And I think that's a good way of cooking quinoa without having to worry about liquid ratios.
CM: Yes. And this is something that we've called out in our back to basics episodes. Cook your grains like pasta. Thoughts on colors of quinoa?
SU: Oh god, just the white quinoa. Nothing else.
CM: What? Stop it. Stop it right now. I think red is superior quinoa to white. It cooks up more al dente. White has the greatest tendency to get mushy. Most superior of all, black quinoa. I almost hesitate to bring it up because it can be tricky to source, but I have a tendency to feel that darker grains-
SU: Sure, that's true.
CM: ... in general, have more flavor. And listen, you don't necessarily always want the purple rice or the purple barley, but I do think there is something about black quinoa. The grains are the smallest and they cook up in the most toothsome way possible. It's really quite a different experience from white quinoa and I would encourage anybody out there to try it.
SU: What I'm taking away from this is you eat surprisingly a lot more quinoa than you're letting on.
CM: No, I don't mind eating lots of quinoa and like lots of salads, other preparations, you know, mixing a little bit in here and there, but it really announces itself wherever you use it. I find that it incorporates most seamlessly into when you are using it in concert with other grains like a mixed rice scenario.
SU: I was going to say.
CM: So go ahead and tell us about that.
SU: I'm glad you brought that up because really that was going to be my second way of cooking it is. And that's what actually, George, I did this for you. I cooked quinoa the other week because I was like, "You know what? George is going to ask, I need to figure out a solution." And I cooked it in the rice cooker. I mixed it with like 50% rice, like white rice, and I cooked it in the rice cooker, and honestly, it was really good.
CM: Really?
SU: Foolproof.
CM: The measured amount of water for white rice on the white rice setting?
SU: Yes. Cook it on the white rice setting.
CM: Subbed 50% by volume-
SU: With quinoa by volume.
CM: ... quinoa?
SU: Yep. And you just put it in there, stick it on the white rice setting, and it came out really well. It came out good. Nice fluffy, separate grains. It was great.
CM: Dynamite.
SU: Yeah.
CM: How is this sounding, George?
G: I'm actually a little shocked that Shilpa said cook it like pasta and then drain it because everything I've been doing and anyone I've spoken to, it's like, "Oh, you're supposed to cook it almost like a grit and let the grain pop and let that little tail come off and you're supposed to let all the water evaporate." So the fact that you're telling me to cook it like I would a pasta, actually I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around that.
CM: I think that's the thing. Like listen, you can make quinoa stewie if you want. I don't think that's what quinoa truly wants to be. I think it wants to be cooked and yet slightly drier and more fluffy, and I think it wants to then either exist in concert with other cooked grains, whether they're rice or a mix of other whole grains. But it also then takes better to applications where it can be its fluffiest, driest self and be layered into salads. A handful scattered over like even just almost like a Caesar salad is going to add like protein and texture and a little bit more kind of nutritional intrigue if you will. Whereas trying to turn quinoa to peel into pilaf, I think you're in a kind of race to the bottom of disappointment. So I want to turn to a broader conversation about plant-based sources of protein. We wanted to sort of pull your attention to the wonderful protein-packed world of legumes and pulses like lentils and chickpeas. So Shilpa, were there some recipes that you wanted to talk about?
SU: Well, here's the thing. I have to be honest. I did pick out a tofu recipe to prescribe to George. So that's why my-
CM: Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.
SU: That's why my mind isn't fully locked in because I'm panicking.
CM: Okay. I was like, Shilpa, you're like a heat-seeking missile for lentils. What is happening? Okay, great. Well no, if there's a tofu recipe that can transform George's understanding of tofu, let's do that.
SU: I think it might.
CM: Okay, great.
SU: It's your recipe really for soy scallion tofu bowl. And the reason I picked it is because you grate-
CM: Oh, the shredded one?
SU: Yeah.
CM: Yeah.
SU: You shred the tofu. And George, I think we often think of tofu as this bland, soft-textured thing, but the way Chris handled it in this recipe I think was really revolutionary. And he grates and shreds it on the large holes of a box grater, as I said, and then you toss it with soy and a bunch of other things and you saute. And I think what's brilliant about it is shredding it then exposes so much of that surface area, that it absorbs a lot more sauce and it's instantly more flavorful and also, it has a lot more texture now when you're cooking it in the pan.
CM: It becomes a little bit more like ground meat texture and you can kind of treat it as such. I think tofu, I utterly love. The thing that I think sometimes works against it is like it comes in these monolithic blocks. So you're trying to kind of like break the hierarchy. Oh, is it planks? Oh, is it cubes? Oh, did I crumble it? But if you can just obliterate its structure entirely and grate it, it allows you to do some quite different things. Tofu has such high water content. I think just driving out some of that excess moisture that can then be replaced by more flavorful things is always going to be your friend.
SU: Yeah, I love that recipe. I think it really kind of breaks something in your brain about what you can do with tofu.
CM: So I want to talk for just a minute about beans, chickpeas and lentils. I think lentils are another food that you can cook like pasta, particularly if we're talking about French green lentils, black beluga lentils, the smaller denser whole lentils. Styles that have not been split also take really well to being boiled in salted water until tender and then drained. I use that form of lentils in multiple applications, in lots of different recipes that I've done over the years. There's one recipe that I have for glazed sweet potatoes with lentils where I don't know if you've ever had like Japanese sweet potato, but that's almost been like simmered in like soy mirin until it's caramelized.
I do something fairly similar but with more of like a garnet yam and then top it with like a very bright punchy salad of lentils for like a quick weeknight dinner that does particularly well if you've roasted those sweet potatoes ahead of time. Next we have a recipe for a salad that is called Just Keeps Getting Better Lentil Salad by the phenomenal Sarah Jampel. This is a salad that you can keep in your fridge that consists of salted and massaged kale, almonds, cooked lentils, dressed, and it literally does what it says on the box and gets better for days on end in your fridge.
SU: I know it's a staff favorite.
CM: It is an unequivocal staff favorite. All I want to say is like there are so many different ways to get things like chickpeas and lentils into your diet. We have tons of recipes that incorporate them and if you're looking for plant-based sources of protein, they honestly should be your first stop.
SU: I agree.
CM: Yeah?
SU: I strongly agree.
G: So I do something with chickpeas still where I just literally throw in some cucumber, onion, tomato, a little bit of lemon, salt, pepper and feta. But with lentils, I'll be honest with you, like I've done some types of dal. If I've done anything lentil, it's normally Indian food or something Indian-inspired.
CM: Yeah. And that's why I'd say think beyond that as well. Think beyond that. Having those cooked lentils on hand, they can be adaptable to a wide range of flavors. Sometimes I'll just take those and I'll fry them out almost like a crispy chickpea just for like a very textural element to add to a salad. But just know that you can use them in all kinds of ways, throwing out these rules that I think you've absorbed from different sources and really thinking expansively about applying really amazing flavors to these ingredients. So, looking forward to regrouping with you once you've had a chance to cook some things and we will wait to hear from you. Okay?
G: Yes, sir.
SU: It's great talking to you, George.
CM: So we sent George off armed with methods for quinoa, lentils, and yes, even tofu, and waited to hear how everything went. We'll hear more from him after another short break. Hey George, how is it going?
G: It's going, Chef. How's it going for you?
CM: It's all right. Well listen, I'm joined once again by Shilpa.
SU: Hi.
CM: How are you, Shilpa?
SU: Very well, Chris.
G: Hi, Shilpa.
SU: Hi, George.
CM: George, we gave you a bit of an assignment, which was first and foremost make quinoa, but cook it like pasta, and then secondly play around with other plant-based protein options. So without further ado, what did you make?
G: So I actually made all three dishes you gave me. I just made both lentils at the same exact time.
CM: Oh, okay. Smart.
G: And then I made the tofu a couple of days later.
CM: Before we get into the specifics of these dishes, just curious, did you also make quinoa?
G: I did. So I actually had to go search for black quinoa.
CM: Red would've been okay. I just want to point out, red would've been just fine.
G: So I did all three. And cooking it like pasta, it definitely achieved what I wanted.
CM: And so ultimately it met your expectations, maybe has kind of redefined how you would think to cook quinoa in the future?
G: Yes, because it no longer was that cream of wheat, grit, texture. Yeah. I was able to finally achieve like when you go to Kava or whatever and they have quinoa there, I finally got that instead of the porridge, soupy texture.
CM: Glad you're on the right path now. Okay, turning back to other plant-based proteins and some of these dishes you made, I cannot believe you made three. Talk to me about the other recipes. Can we start with the lentils?
G: Oh, so I made, it was the green lentils, and the first one I made was the sweet potato and the second one I finished obviously was the kale.
CM: Okay. And so talk to me, let's start with the sweet potatoes. Was that a new technique for you?
G: Yes. I roasted them for 50 minutes, and when I pulled them out a lot of the sugar started leaking out of it.
CM: Yeah.
G: And it made like-
CM: Caramelized.
G: It did. It was so amazing. I actually took a little bit with my knife and just kind of shivied it off the parchment paper and it was sweet and syrupy. It was almost like a taffy.
CM: Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely.
SU: Mm.
G: It was amazing. And then I will say the sauce that it was in for the sweet potato is going to be my go-to for if I just need to do like a quick sauce for like an Asian stir-fry or something, I'm 100% making that sauce every time. It was amazing.
CM: Oh, I'm just looking this up. One quick sec.
G: And so it was maple syrup, mirin, pepper flake, miso. And there was one other thing.
SU: Sesame oil.
G: Sesame oil.
CM: It's like the Chris Morocco playbook.
G: Oh, it was so good.
SU: I was going to say.
CM: Yeah, that is a great all-purpose sauce because I think it can work with a range of proteins. I've used similar flavors on tofu, I've used similar flavors on salmon, things that have strong flavor, things that have more mild flavor because ultimately it has a lot of flavor to it, but it's a highly malleable one. And for a sweet potato, something that's right there in the name, it is a little bit on the sweeter side. I find that searing it, once it's already been roasted and then doing the soy, maple kind of glaze treatment just gives it that wonderful lacquer, makes them very compelling in a much more satiating base for a vegetable main than if you just... And listen, there's nothing wrong with just splitting open a roasted sweet potato and having at it, but it adds that additional layer of consideration and intention that I think really makes it work as a main course, as opposed to an ad hoc meal. Tell me more about the lentil salad. How did you feel about it in the end?
G: So to kind of get that texture you needed, I put salt in there and I might have overdone it a little bit because both my mom and my dad said it had ample amount of salt. The olives and the feta in it along with it, that was amazing. The feta was my dad's favorite part.
CM: Okay, so last, certainly not least, the soy and scallion tofu bowl. Shilpa, you were really bullish on suggesting this one to George. I know you said tofu was not your favorite, George. Were we able to change your mind?
G: I'm sorry, Shilpa, normally I'll listen and there's the competition between you and Chris and you normally win. This one was not it. I'm so sorry. The texture was curdled scrambled eggs.
CM: Oh, wow. I'm the one who developed this recipe, so I'm the one who should be taking the heat here, but honestly I've got a smile on my face because listen, you can't get everybody all the time.
SU: Though I have to say I believe in this recipe a lot and I do want to diagnose this a little bit because something about what you said stopped me in my tracks, when you said it scrambled eggs. Now I'm curious what kind of tofu you used.
G: So it was firm tofu and I grated it, and even after grating it and cooking in the oil, it didn't get firm. I squeezed it, but as I was squeezing it was falling apart, which made it harder to grate.
CM: Listen, the technique that's happening in this recipe, you sort of alluded to it, George. So you're heating up oil and garlic in a nonstick skillet. You are throwing in some sesame seeds and some chili flakes, getting those fragrant. Then you're adding this shredded tofu, which the shredding is really meant to kind of mimic the texture of ground meat, as Shilpa pointed out in our last conversation. And then you're cranking up the heat. You're trying to just drive that water out so that you can throw in some aromatics like the scallions and then soy sauce, mirin and butter, just to add a little bit of richness as well as flavor. And then kind of replacing that sort of water content that you've driven out of the tofu with ingredients that have a good bit more flavor to them as well as some fat. So it'll drink that in. And then you're done. But listen, if you're not a tofu person, maybe you're just not a tofu person.
SU: Yeah, we try. Sometimes we try and we don't win.
CM: We try. My only next thing would be well, try it frozen and then deep fried.
SU: Oh, yeah.
CM: Freeze those blocks and then cut them up.
SU: And then thaw them.
CM: Thaw them, cut them, and then dredge it and deep fry it and then stir fry it.
SU: I agree.
CM: Yeah, it gives you a real chicken nugget kind of crispy exterior custardy tender interior. But I don't know, even then, there may be no pleasing you. Well, I'm curious then, George, are lentils going to be part of your repertoire going forward? Are you going to lean heavily on beans, chickpeas? What's next?
G: I want to lean more into chickpeas and finding more recipes for lentils. Tofu, I'm with Shilpa on this, I think that ship has sailed.
CM: If you have a dinner emergency on your hands, write to us at DinnerSOS@BonAppetit.com. Or leave us a voice message at 212-286-SOS1. That's 212-286-7071. We'd love to feature your question on the show. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating and review on your podcast app of choice and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode. You can find the recipes mentioned on today's episode linked in our show notes and on the Epicurious app, brought to you by Condé Nast. Just search Epicurious in the app store and download today. And if you're not yet a subscriber, you can sign up today for a 30 day free trial in the app or at BonAppetit.com. Thanks for listening to Dinner SOS. I'm your host, Chris Morocco. My Co-Host this week is Shilpa Uskokovic. Our Senior Producer is Michele O'Brien. Peyton Hayes is our Associate Producer. Cameron Foos is our Assistant Producer. Jake Lummus is our Studio Engineer. This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound. Research editing by Marissa Wolkenberg. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer. Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's Head of Global Audio.