ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco taps test kitchen editors Kendra Vaculin and Shilpa Uskokovic to help callers save their Thanksgiving menus with these guaranteed winners.
Jackie is used to hosting Thanksgiving with her mom and sister, but this year will be taking on the challenge by herself. She needs help scaling back her menu and focusing on essential dishes. Emily comes from a family of prolific bakers, and though a skilled baker herself, she can’t master pie crust. Barbi is vegan and typically defaults to bringing dessert to her Thanksgiving gatherings. This year she’s looking for a showstopping savory vegan dish that can be made the day before, is easy to transport and reheat, and still tastes and looks delicious. Diana is looking for a fun, colorful salad that can easily be prepped ahead of time so she can prioritize being engaged with her family and guests.
Chris brings in experts Kendra and Shilpa, both of whom know exactly how to help. Chris recommends Jackie make Jesse Szewczyk’s Miso-Glazed Carrots With Scallion Gremolata for her essential carrot dish. Shilpa shares her Perfect Pie Crust recipe with Emily, which includes two unexpected magic ingredients—cream cheese and baking powder. For Barbi’s vegan showstopper, Kendra recommends Christina Chaey’s Sticky and Spicy Baked Cauliflower for a punchy, unexpected dish with total star power. Chris also offers his Squash and Caramelized Onion Tart, substituting the dairy ingredients for plant-based options, for a beautiful centerpiece moment. Lastly, for Diana, Shilpa highlights Hana Asbrink’s Maple-and-Bacon Fall Chopped Salad for a delicious cook-ahead salad option, with lots of fun, autumnal flavor.
Listen now to hear Chris, Kendra and Shilpa come to the callers’ rescue and save Thanksgiving!
Chris Morocco: Hey there listeners, future callers and cooking enthusiasts. This is Dinner SOS, the show where we help you save dinner or whatever you're cooking. I'm Chris Morocco, food Director of Bon Appétit and Epicurious, and here we are to save Thanksgiving. I'm joined here by a panel of true experts, my colleagues Kendra Vaculin and Shilpa Uskokovic, and today, we're going to be taking listener calls about Turkey stuffing, and I'm frankly hoping pie as well. Do you want to introduce yourselves?
Kendra Vaculin: Sure. Hi, I'm Kendra. I am a food editor, and I work in the test kitchen, and I made many Thanksgiving turkeys this July for you.
CM: Sure did.
Shilpa Uskokovic: I'm Shilpa, you have probably heard me on this podcast many times before. I'm also a food editor here at Bon Appétit. What did I make this year? I made garlic bread biscuits this year for you Thanksgiving pleasure.
KV: Yes, you did.
CM: Biscuits. Centerfold Biscuits.
SU: Those were great biscuits.
KV: They are stunners.
CM: Stunners. Thank you so much for being here, both of you. The theme of this November's issue of Bon Appétit is reasons to love Thanksgiving, and the issue is packed with a whopping 55 of them. Before we open the phone lines to take some listener questions, I wanted to ask you both, what are you looking forward to about Thanksgiving this year?
KV: Oh my gosh, what am I looking forward to? I'm not traveling this year. I'm having people at my apartment, which is a delight. It is a wonderful thing to not have to go anywhere and let everybody come to you. I'm looking forward to that.
CM: That's awesome. What about you, Shilpa?
SU: I think this year is going to be particularly busy for me personally. I'm hoping that Thanksgiving Day itself will be quiet, and that I get to spend just time with my husband that day. It'll probably be a very quiet Thanksgiving, I think.
CM: All right. What am I looking forward to this year? Similar thing, Kendra, we rarely go very far at all. We're going to have my mom over on the actual day of Thanksgiving, and it'll just be the five of us. And then the day after, we're going to go to my uncle's place, which is 12 minutes down the road, and there'll probably be 20 some odd folks there. My cousins will be there, and we'll have another Thanksgiving feast.
KV:: That's really nice.
SU: Are you going to cook?
CM: TBD if I will be cooking that second, larger feast. Historically, my aunt and uncle are the consummate hosts, and they have a Thanksgiving program that is just totally dialed in.
SU: The use of the word program gave it all away.
KV: Really illustrating what we're dealing with here.
CM: Yeah, and I don't want to insinuate that there's an intransigence when it comes to new ideas around the holiday, but if you're hosting, and you want to do what you like, that's great. That's a win, and I celebrate that.
All right, without further ado, we've got some listener questions to answer. Are we feeling ready for our first caller?
KV: Bring them on, yes.
CM: Hi Jackie, how are you?
Jackie: Hello. Good, how are you?
CM: Good. Where are you right now?
J: I am sitting in my bedroom in central Illinois.
CM: Amazing. Very curious to know, what is your Thanksgiving SOS?
J: I am used to hosting Thanksgiving with my mom and my sister. We're a well-oiled machine. We make a lot of things, and our dinner plates at the end look like a little smattering of everything. There's many kinds of vegetables, salads, two kinds of dinner rolls, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, turkey stuffing, a million kinds of pie. This year, I'm hosting. I have two small children, and the only people that my husband and I are hosting are his mom and brother, and his brother's significant other, so a very quaint Thanksgiving. Now, I'm struggling with, how do I do this by myself, and scale it back in a way that still makes it feel special? What things do I really focus on?
KV: I love this question so much. I think people often don't think about Thanksgiving as a dinner party, but it is. Thanksgiving is just the Super Bowl of dinner parties, but the same mentality applies, and the things that you're thinking about when creating a dinner party menu can be on the table if what you want to do is create a streamlined menu for your Thanksgiving as opposed to excess, which might've been your going move in the past. What I would like to do in that scenario is think about your plate, and divide it up based on the kinds of flavors and kinds of textures that you feel like you must hit.
Where in the past, you were like, "We're going to have six types of vegetables that are all doing the same thing," here you'll be like, "I need one green vegetable that's crunchy and has some sort of fun addition like bacon, or shallots or whatever. I need one mashed moment, like a mashed potato or a mashed sweet potato. I need one bready moment to sop up all my gravy." You should check your boxes in terms of those flavors and textures that must appear, and then narrow it down to the star that fills each quadrant of your dream Thanksgiving plate.
J: Okay.
CM: What feels essential for you, just so we can make sure we give you our tight edit that is the right edit?
J: Oh my gosh. Well, stuffing is essential. I'm having trouble choosing my dinner roll, because when I was narrowing this down, I realized I just am in love with all the carbs. I want the mashed potatoes. We make a Parker house roll and a sweet potato clover leaf roll, so I've got to choose one of those. And then after that, I think maybe a carrot would be essential for me.
SU: Oh, we have just the carrot Jessie developed in our latest Thanksgiving issue. Jessie developed these miso glazed carrots with a scallion topping, and I think that would be great.
CM: It would be great. Maybe your kids won't appreciate the scallions, in which case, just hold them back. Sorry, this is me speaking as a parent. The miso is lovely in there. It's just adding a nice mid-range of umami. It's not super strongly flavored or anything, so it's just the platonic ideal of a glazed carrot, lots of glaze, tender veg, nice deep crimson color. That is a wonderful one. So far, some of the things that you've mentioned, like stuffing, that can absolutely be made a day or two ahead, I would say.
Mashed potatoes, same thing day, or two ahead, just cover and just hold really tightly wrapped, obviously refrigerated, and then just reheated with a little bit extra liquid like milk, or whatever you're using in your recipe, that can be reheated the day of. Parker house rolls, obviously, you want to bake them off fresh the day of, but depending on your recipe, you can certainly, in most cases, set them up to prove in the fridge overnight. If I could tempt you, by all means do your Parker house rolls, Shilpa, tell us about the biscuits you did this year. This is a day of exercise, but it is so much less work than a Parker house roll, and it may captivate and even entrance you with its awesomeness.
SU: They're garlic bread biscuits, and they're fashioned after garlic knots that you might get at a pizza place. Admittedly, these make a lot, so at first glance, it seems perhaps an imperfect solution for you, but it scales down very easily. You can cut them in half, no problem.
CM: Nobody gets upset about having too many biscuits.
KV: Truly my favorite problem to have.
SU: Well, okay, in that case, you could make the whole batch, and then you could bake some. You could bake half and freeze the rest, or you could bake them all and then do what you will. I think what makes it special is, there is the usual biscuit suspects, buttermilk, baking powder, et cetera, but the dough also has garlic powder and Parmesan, and finely chopped parsley in it. It's flavored from the inside out just like a garlic knot. Most importantly, you bake these biscuits on a sheet tray as opposed to in a pan, for instance, or a skillet, and when you do that, what happens is, some of them topple over, and that's by design. They topple over, and then the sides get crispy and textured, which I think is missing from a lot of biscuits. It's only usually the top that gets brown and crisp, and this one, you have some of the tops that get done, then some of the sides, and you see all of those layers peeking through. And then, they get finished with a garlic butter and more Parmesan.
CM: It's a banger, and it's one biscuit to rule them all, to really hold the center of the table. The other thing that I would say is listen, nobody says you have to make turkey unless you say you have to make a turkey. I just really want to make that very clear. You have permission from us, you can drop our names. I don't care. I can take the heat. We said, you don't have to make a Turkey this year. Make chickens.
KV: Also, as another bid for Shilpa's biscuits, I think making the whole amount, I would never be like, "This is too many biscuits." Those are words you did not hear me say, but I would say what they can do for you is provide a really beautiful vehicle for leftovers. If you're having your smaller gathering, but you aren't going to scale down necessarily your quantities, biscuits are a really good way to carry through the next day. If you do have leftover turkey, you can build little sandwiches on the biscuits. Biscuits and gravy is a classic combo, so leftover gravy makes for a really good breakfast the next morning. I think it's a really delightful way to use up those bits and bobs that you might have leftover in your fridge. You want to have a baseline thing to do that on, and to me, these biscuits are the ideal vehicle.
CM: How is this sounding, Jackie? Any other quick things we can chime in on?
J: No, I think that's good. I can do the stuffing and potatoes the day before. I can do the carrots and biscuits the day of, and then maybe add on a salad, and then think about whether I want to do a turkey, and then I'll be done.
CM: Yeah, and we have a great recipe for make ahead gravy as well. By all means, de-glaze your pan drippings, but you can use those in another application, or to make more gravy the day after. You don't need to be making gravy at the last minute. That's the kind of thing that people end up tearing their hair out, because they're trying to reduce it and cook it down, and everybody's hungry and grumpy, mostly me.
J: Yes. Thank you guys so much. This was so helpful.
CM: Jackie, you make what you feel like, okay?
J: Okay.
CM: Don't forget, like Kendra said, it's a dinner party, so have fun.
J: Okay, will do. Thank you.
CM: Hi Emily. How's it going?
Emily: Oh my gosh, it's good. It's cool to hear your voice. I listen to all the episodes.
KV: Oh my God.
CM: Really? Wow. Thank you, Emily.
E: Yeah, I'm a fan.
CM: Tell us, what is your Thanksgiving SOS? How can we help you today?
E: I come from a family of prolific pie bakers, and I am a really experienced and skilled baker myself. Although, every time that I've made a traditional pie crust in the same way that my mom and my grandma have, the pain and suffering that I go through to make a beautiful pie crust seems disproportionate to how amazing the pie crust ends up being. I know my mom and my grandma use the same one, it's almost like an old family recipe. My mom even uses lard to make it extra flaky and beautiful, but every time I try to go and make this beautiful pie crust, regardless of what my fat is, it just isn't the same as when my mom and my grandma make it. Theirs are so tender and lovely, and layers of flakiness.
Intellectually, I know how to do it, I know how to make it, but I don't know if they put extra kisses in there, or what it is that makes it so beautiful and magical, and mine are just never quite as stunning. They're fine, but they're not amazing. I was just wondering if you had any amazing, secret advice.
CM: Kendra and my eyes are locked fixedly, not creepily, but fixedly on Shilpa right now, because she has the answer for you.
SU: I do? I do, and I think I have the answer for you.
CM: I do? I do.
SU: I do, because I actually used to hate making pie crusts, and I used to be really bad at making pie crusts. A few years ago, I was tasked with developing a recipe for the magazine, and I did a lot of research, and I put a lot of time, and I think I have what we call on the site actually perfect pie crust, and it is actually perfect. It's always flaky, it is easy to work with, and it bakes up very, very flaky. The biggest thing I learned in my pie making journey is yes, you have to be worried about overworking, but most of us are under-mixing our pie dough.
CM: And potentially under-hydrating as well.
SU: And under-hydrating, yes. Don't be afraid of gluten in a pie dough. To some extent it is essential to create enough structure so that it holds up to being rolled out. I've found that there's a magic ratio when you make pie crusts. If you have equal parts flour to equal parts fat, and then you have half the amount of liquid, then you're guaranteed to have success. That fat can be in any form. It can be the lard that your mom used, or it can be the butter that you prefer.
CM: But not shortening. Shortening is not the answer. I'm sorry, with respect to Grandma Minnie, please don't at me, but it's not the answer.
SU: I'll let you take the lead on that.
CM: Wait, are you saying you disagree?
SU: I'm just saying, don't yuck somebody else's yum, which is really a new for me, to make that stance.
CM: Shortening doesn't taste like anything, so it's not even a question of yum. It's almost like it's not there.
KV: Okay, but guys, you're burying the lead. There is a secret ingredient.
CM: Yes.
SU: Sorry.
CM: Thank you, Kendra.
SU: Kendra's keeping us in check here.
KV: I'm like, "Guys, there is one thing about this pie crust, which I have made many times since Shilpa published it, that is what pushes it over the edge into actually perfect."
SU: And it's cream cheese.
KV: What?
SU: It's cream cheese and baking powder, and these are the two ingredients that completely transform this pie crust, and I think it's what Kendra's referring to in that it's unusual from many other pie crusts. Using these two ingredients, I think, is the guarantee. The cream cheese helps you roll it out really well, and then, the baking powder helps to create flakes. There's a beautiful technique where you fold the pastry over itself multiple times to create layers, but then the addition of baking powder, kind of like an insurance policy. Even if you didn't fold your pie dough too well, the baking powder is in there to make this pastry very light and crisp. Check it out, make it, I think you might be very happy with the results.
E: I never would have guessed.
CM: Yeah, and trust me, when Shilpa was developing this, I was like, "Really? You've got to put cream cheese in it?" I really believe in it now. I'm a believer, and you can be a believer, too.
E: Wow.
CM: And you can win pie this Thanksgiving.
SU: You can. We believe in you.
E: Yes.
KV: You can do it.
E: It's going to happen. I believe, it's beautiful. I'm excited. Thank you.
CM: Good luck.
SU: Let us know how it goes.
CM: Yes, indeed.
E: Awesome.
CM: Thank you.
E: Thank you.
CM: We are going to take a quick break. When we get back, how to bring something tasty to the feast that doesn't get soggy in transit.
Hi Barbi, how are you doing?
Barbi: Hi, I am great, thanks. How are you?
CM: Good. Tell me, what is your Thanksgiving SOS?
B: To start, I'm vegan, and you may know that vegans, like always, are trying to impress people with their food, and very self-conscious. We don't want people to think vegan food is bad or anything. I find that at Thanksgiving, or really, any family dinner, I always default to bringing dessert, because it's something that I can reliably make ahead of time, and I know that it will wow people. I just struggle to think of a savory main dish or side that I could make ahead of time, transport, because usually taking the subway, and then possibly a bus to get there, and at best reheat in the microwave, possibly just serve at room temperature.
I always have this nightmare of, we once took this Brussels sprout to a family dinner, and it's one that we make all the time. We made it the day before, showed up, put it in the microwave, and then it was brown when it came out. It was so horrible, and again, just so embarrassing. I'm basically looking for a show-stopping vegan dish that can be made the night before, transported, and still taste and look really good.
SU: Wow. I have just the thing for Barbi, because a year ago, I developed a vegan meatloaf.
CM: I was thinking about that.
SU: I think that might just be perfect for a holiday meal. It's made with mushrooms, and it has precooked brown rice in it, which provides a lot of the bulk. It also has beans, and my favorite part, perhaps, is the glaze. It's glazed with a mixture of ketchup and sugar and vinegar, and also some hot sauce. It's a little bit sweet, spicy, and then, it gets caramelized in the oven. Chris or Kendra, do you have other suggestions?
KV: I was thinking about a Christina Chaey recipe from a couple of years ago called sticky and spicy baked cauliflower. It's a roasted cauliflower dish where the cauliflower is tossed in this cornstarch and flour and baking powder mixture that gets it really crisp, and then you toss it after it's all crispy in this gochujang soy maple sauce. It's got this sticky, savory, slightly spicy glaze happening on it, which I think is really fun for Thanksgiving, because it provides a very different flavor profile than everything else that's on your table. Getting that little bit of heat in there, I think is really delightful and wanted when the rest of your plate is full out with rich and heavy and creamy, dairy-laden types of dishes. Having that little bit of red heat really is a nice thing for the palate.
CM: I fully second that. I think it's an unexpected and unconventional choice, but it's one that I think it absolutely is going to balance those other flavors that are present. The only thing I would add, years ago I developed a squash and caramelized onion tart. Now, this does have butter in the crust, but could be easily substituted with Country Crock avocado-based butter, or other plant-based butter, and would just need a substitute, or just to eliminate, there's a small amount of cheese in there as well. It's a showstopper from the standpoint of, it's really beautiful to look at. It's thinly sliced, shaved vegetables like butternut squash, like sweet potato, like red onion that are laid concentrically in that prepped tart shell on a bed of caramelized onions, with a lot of mustard brushed onto the base of the tart. This is not one that's going to feed a table of linebackers, but it's a really nice centerpiece moment that I think could be adapted well. Point being, you have options here.
B: Yeah, that sounds great. I did just have one question about the first two dishes. Again, if we're transporting them, and they have to be served hot, are those okay to microwave? Would you just put the glaze on right when you're serving, bring that separate?
SU: For the meatloaf, I would glaze it prior. Finish the recipe as per the instructions, and then I would just reheat it, and I think it takes really well to that.
KV: For the cauliflower, I would say bake off your cauliflower at home. Then, once it's cool, pack that up. And then, make the glaze separately, in a little container. And then, when you get to your final destination, if you can, throw that cauliflower back out on a sheet pan and put it back in the oven for just a couple of minutes to re-crisp, and heat it through, and then toss it with your glaze.
SU: Or an air fryer, if they have that.
KV: Definitely.
B: Amazing. Thank you.
CM: The air fryer lobby over here. All right, thank you so much for calling, Barbi. We're wishing you the best of luck.
B: All right, thanks so much.
CM: Hi Ashley.
Ashley: Hi Chris.
CM: Welcome. Where are you calling from?
A: I'm in Long Island, New York.
CM: Awesome. You're thinking ahead to Thanksgiving, and I'm curious, what is your SOS today?
A: I work at a wine shop on Thanksgiving Day, so I can't really prep anything that day. I want to do an appetizer and a dessert the day before, but my daughter and I are vegetarian, so a vegetarian appetizer, and for the dessert, I would like it to not be pie.
SU: Kendra?
KV: I am so ready for this question. We are going to skip the appetizer portion for a moment, because I'm going right into desert. This year, I developed for our Thanksgiving issue a pumpkin-Basque cheesecake. It is all the flavors of a pumpkin pie, those warming spices that you expect, but in Basque cheesecake form, which is voluminous and burnished on top, and crust-free. It really deviates from pie in all of the ways. It's really, really good made the day before, because when it comes out of the oven it's extremely jiggly, and that's a good thing. It means you have this tender interior. You need it to cool completely before you can slice it, so that it holds its shape, and letting it sit, chill in your fridge overnight really makes that happen.
And then, all you have to do the day of is pull it from your fridge, and then make a little bit of a whipped cream to go on top. In our recipe, I spiked my whipped cream with a little bit of amaro, so you could bring some home from the wine shop if there's one you've been wanting to try, or maybe you have one on your bar cart that you'd like to dedicate a tablespoon or two for your whipped cream, but it really does bolster the flavor in a delightful way. I would recommend this as your pie substitute make ahead this year.
SU: I think that's a great idea.
CM: What's the issue with pie? I'm curious.
A: My job before I had my kids was, I was a baker, and the holiday season for us was just pies upon pies upon pies. It's like, "I don't want to eat that at home." I've made hundreds of thousands of pies. It's just not what I want to be doing.
CM: Yeah, heard. Honestly, I'm a big fan of chocolate for desserts all year. I always end up making Alison Roman's fallen chocolate cake, honestly, because it's gluten-free and it's nut-free, so it just ticks a lot of boxes for my own personal situation at home. It's light and yet indulgent, and it can easily hold up a day or more in advance. I think there's something like, it's a little bit taboo, still, about chocolate at Thanksgiving, and I think chocolate desserts are completely fair game. Appetizer, vegetarian, where are we going?
SU: Hannah developed this recipe for these really cute palmiers, which start off with a sheet of store-bought puff pastry, and then, Hannah spreads a mixture of canned green curry paste mixed with a little bit of cheese, and I think perhaps even a bit of mayo.
KV: Yeah, I think so.
SU: And then, a thin smear on the puff pastry, and then you roll it up palmiers, which, as a baker, I'm sure you're very familiar with the shape.
A: Very familiar.
SU: And then, you can slice them off and bake them the day ahead, certainly. I don't know, they were really tasty.
KV: They're so great.
SU: It felt like they would pair really well with drinks, for instance, and you work in a wine shop, you would know such good pairings for these. It just seemed likable by everybody.
A: Do you think the puff pastry palmiers would get soggy the day before, though? Or do you think they would keep the crisp for a full day after? That's my only worry with puff pastry.
SU: No, they would certainly keep the crisp, because these are cut thin, and then, you bake them until they're crisp.
CM: It presents like a cheese straw, but with green curry paste as this catalyzing agent that really just wakes up the flavors.
KV: I know it sounds random. When she first said, "I'm going to do mayo and green curry," I was like, "Okay, go with God, I guess." But then, it doesn't read as green curry paste necessarily. It reads as just aromatic and bright, because it's combined with those creamier elements that offset... you're not thinking when you're eating it, "I am eating at a Thai restaurant." You're thinking, "This is just bright and buttery, and spicy."
SU: And cheesy.
KV: It's so good.
CM: Fun.
A: Yeah, I'm into that. That sounds good.
CM: Kendra, you're the queen of snacks.
KV: I love a snack.
CM: Za'tar firecrackers?
KV: Yes.
A: Okay, wait. I love Kendra's Za'tar firecrackers. I made them for a dinner party we had with our friends, and I was like, "I should make those for Thanksgiving."
KV: They're so good for Thanksgiving.
CM: Absolutely, you should.
KV: They're obviously well suited for a make-ahead.
A: Yeah, that could be perfect, because I could soak them the night before then just bake them the day of. Perfect.
KV: They're a really big hit. I made them for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago myself.
SU: They're great.
A: I'm a Kendra fan.
KV: So happy to hear it.
CM: That's awesome. Well, sorry you have to work this year, but hopefully, you'll be able to bring home a special bottle.
A: Yeah, definitely. For sure. I'm excited. The palmiers sound so delicious, and cheesecake, do I need a spring form pan for the cheesecake?
KV: You do do need a spring form.
CM: But it's no water bath. Its really simple. My gosh, as far as cheesecakes go, it's a banger.
A: Awesome. I guess I'll have to finally buy a spring form pan.
CM: Sorry.
A: That's one of the only pans I don't own. It's okay. It seems like it'll be worth it.
CM: It'll be worth it.
A: Definitely.
CM: All right, thanks Ashley.
A: Thanks so much everybody.
CM: Good luck this year, okay? Thanks for calling in.
A: Thank you.
CM: We are going to take one more break.
KV: Wait, sorry. Guys, Ashley has already DM'd me on Instagram. She says, "Hi, it's Ashley from dinner SOS Ordering a spring form pan right now for that cheesecake."
And then I said, "Oh my God, can't wait to see the finished product. Definitely send pics."
She said, "Of course. My husband is in the booze industry, so once I said amaro whipped cream, he was all about it."
SU: Oh, fun.
CM: Nice.
We're going to take one more break. When we get back, we're talking about arguably the most stressful part of Thanksgiving, carving the turkey.
Hi Lisa.
Lisa: Hello Chris.
CM: Where are you calling from?
L: I am calling from Minneapolis, Minnesota.
CM: Awesome. I take it you're thinking ahead to Thanksgiving, and something is troubling you.
L: Yes.
CM: Tell me more about that.
L: I'll give you a little background. My husband and I have been hosting a friends giving with our closest friends for over 20 years now. It started out with just five of us, and it was always our favorite holiday of the year. Just super chill, comfy/cozy clothes, potluck style, and no family dramas. Over the years, our families have grown, and we've added even more friends and their families, and have loved it along the way. Over the last seven years we've added many of our parents as well. This year, it looks like we're going to be having 17 to 20 at our gathering, and here's where I could use some advice.
CM: We're ready.
L: All right, cool. Awesome. Every year I cook the turkey, and I've had to keep increasing the size of the turkey over the years, as the gathering has grown. The last one I did was 21 and a half pounds, the biggest turkey I could find. I find these huge turkeys are more challenging to deal with in many ways. There's carrying it and bringing it home, and then seasoning it, making room in the fridge for it, keeping it there for a couple of days, trickier to cook it, to carve it, all of that. I've been wondering if I should consider going to two birds rather than one. That's one question I have. I do have two ovens. And then, there's the other challenge I have. We just moved about a year ago to a new home with an open kitchen concept, whereas in our old house, the kitchen was in a separate room. This was great for carving the turkey, so I could focus and do it in a relaxed way.
I feel a lot of pressure, and I still use a written tutorial that I have printed out from years ago to carve the turkey. I take it step by step. This year now, with this open kitchen, I know myself and the pressure that I'm going to feel. I feel like I'm going to become anxious and tense this year with everyone around me exclaiming how great it looks, how great it smells, how hungry they are, with their glasses of wine all around me, watching me to carve the turkey. I've thought about, I wonder if somehow I could cut the Turkey in advance, yet I don't want to lose that moisture, and that flavor. Those are my two questions that I could use some help with.
CM: Shilpa, you looked over at me, and then made some sort of hand gesture, and I'm curious what you're thinking about. I was like, "Thanksgiving is canceled. I don't know, carve it in a closet. Let's think outside the box here, people," because I know what it's like to be on a stage with these holidays. All that to say, I feel you. I can see this is a source of anxiety that you're already looking ahead to this moment.
L: Yes.
CM: That said, my advice would probably be that yes, you should absolutely cook two turkeys.
SU: Yes, 100%.
KV: Cook two.
CM: Cook two. Two turkeys, two ovens. Just so you know, in our recipe writing for Thanksgiving, we tend to call for 12 to 14 pound turkeys. We do not write recipes, really, that include turkeys past 16 pounds, usually, because of the vagaries of how the breast meat cooks relative to dark meat, because of how unwieldy they are. Just the sheer weight, how much room they take up in your fridge and in your life, and in your head space, it's not worth it. You're almost always going to be better off cooking two. I would love to just make that clean and easy for you. I also just wonder, if you're doing two turkeys, can you effectively basically put one Turkey out as the one that you are going to present as the centerpiece, but ultimately, have that be the turkey that's slated for leftovers and for other treatments? And then honestly, shut yourself in a room with your little step-by-step guide, and carve that turkey by yourself while drinking a glass of wine.
KV: I have an alternative.
CM: Okay.
KV: Since I have worked in food media, I have always been tasked with carving the bird, and it is always a stressful moment. Despite the fact that I have carved numerous chickens my whole life, somehow, the turkey always gets me extra stressed out.
SU: It's a different beast.
KV: I think you should just skip it all together, the carving part, and you should cook your turkey in parts. There is a recipe on the site for it, where you can use your own spice mixture and dry rub, and whatever you usually do, but you can use this recipe as a guide for cooking the turkey in parts. It calls for a 12 to 14 pound Turkey, so you can just get two of those and roast one in each of your ovens in parts. The recipe on the site has step-by-step instructions on how to cut your Turkey into parts, but you can also literally just ask the butcher. Wherever you're getting your Turkey from, there is no shame in being like, "Can you cut this into parts for me?"
And then, all that's left in terms of "Carving" is slicing the breast up, arranging it nicely, but the big piece part of it is done for. Also, when you're talking to your butcher, get the carcass, get all the pieces back, including the pieces that you're not going to serve. That way, you can make your stocks, you can do all the bits. You're not sacrificing any of that stuff by having the pieces cut up for you in advance.
SU: That's a great suggestion. I agree with you.
CM: Honestly, more to the point, it's just a better way to cook turkey. Talk about being able to optimize for the desired internal temperature outcomes of different subsections of a turkey, this is a cooking method that allows you to do that.
L: That sounds great. When you're cooking in parts, do you still do the basting with the butter the same way, or a similar way in the recipe? Does it take less time?
CM: Well, A, yes, it absolutely takes less time. Let's go down the list of the benefits of cooking a broken down turkey. When I say broken down, we're not talking about bits and pieces. This is an entire breast section on the bone. This is thighs-
SU: Talk about your maple butter. That's so good.
CM: Yeah, I have a maple butter glazed roast turkey that follows this approach. Number one, the dry brine, that is going to access and penetrate parts of the turkey that are simply not possible when it is whole.
KV: Totally inaccessible.
CM: Inaccessible, yes. You are opening it up, and also, in the heat of the oven, the ambient heat is going to access parts of the turkey that normally it cannot, because of the fact that these parts are going to be laid out with more air able to circulate around them. The heat will wrap itself around sections of the turkey, especially the dark meat, and render it, and make it crispy and golden and burnished in ways that will blow your mind. And then lastly, it's less a question of basting. Basting doesn't necessarily do loads in this format, but at the end, I'm a firm believer in a glaze, a pre-reduced mixture of vinegar, butter, in this case, maple syrup, something with a sweet element, so you get this lacquered, golden luscious glaze all over everything. It's a real win.
L: That sounds amazing.
SU: Yes, I endorse that message.
CM: Shilpa is here for it.
SU: Yes, because I made it once. I'm not a cooker of turkey, and I made your turkey, and I loved the color on it. There is something to be said about a lot of people wanting a whole turkey, because it is very Thanksgiving, but you don't miss anything, because this turkey is so stunning. It's shiny, it's deep brown, it's burnished, it's glazed. I can't speak enough good things.
CM: Especially once carved, it'll look exactly the same as what started as a whole bird, but you will have mitigated a lot of the issues around cooking a whole turkey. Thank you, Kendra, for bringing that in as a concept.
KV: I'm so sorry. I couldn't let it go by.
CM: Thank you.
KV: I was imagining you literally shoving yourself in a coat closet, trying to carve a turkey.
CM: Which is still fair game. Hey, you do you, and make it work for yourself.
KV: You're like, "I'm going to the garage for an unrelated reason, just bringing this big turkey with me to the garage."
CM: Oh my gosh.
L: Yeah, I love it. I don't feel attached to having the big A-ha, big bird moment.
CM: Wonderful.
KV: Great.
CM: Great.
L: This sounds just perfect for me to try.
CM: Phenomenal. Lisa, thank you so much for this question, and can't wait to see and hear what you do.
L: Thank you so much.
CM: Hi Diana.
Diana: Hi Chris. How are you?
CM: We're all right. Actually, we're pretty fired up.
SU: We're fired up.
CM: This is going to be a very strong finish. Diana, tell us how we can help you.
D: All right. I've been hosting Thanksgiving for probably a dozen years, and after some experimentation, I have my menu set. I've got the turkey, and the stuffing, and the mashed potatoes and the gravy, but I want to add something really fresh and surprising to the mix this year. I'm thinking a colorful salad that really sparkles on the table, and adds something fun and different for everyone. I like to do as much make-ahead as possible, so that I can really be engaged with my family and my guests, so anything where a lot of the components could be prepped ahead would be ideal.
KV: What a great question.
CM: We are speaking your language. We are steadfast believers in the importance of salad at Thanksgiving. We're all on the record here.
SU: Yeah.
CM: Listen, all of the foods that you mentioned, so great, so iconic, and yet, what is balancing them? I'm not trying to paint with too broad a brush here necessarily, but I think we all treat Thanksgiving as this holiday where the normal rules of culinary logic and intuition don't apply. Where would you ever go and get a dinner that was just stodgy thing with a saucy, stodgy thing, and then another stodgy thing, you know what I mean? Delicious, wonderful, layered deep and savory cooking, but my gosh, where's the brightness? Where's the counterpart? All that to say, we hear you and we feel you.
D: Great.
KV: Yes. Well, a salad that I developed for this year's Thanksgiving issue is, I forget what it's called, I think it's called the festive-
SU:: Festive red cabbage and radicchio salad.
KV: There it is. It's all in the red-purple color family, with cabbage and red onion, and blood orange and pomegranate. It's really juicy and bright, and crisp. The cabbage wilts a tiny bit under the acidic nature of the dressing, but retains some of its crunch. I think all of that is really vital, as Chris mentioned, to act as a foil to all of the rich and heavy and soft that you're going to have on your plate otherwise. It is a maximalist salad, so it does, I think, stand up well against these other things that might be vying for center stage on your table, and it very well might be your guest's favorite dish of the night.
CM: There's a lot that you can do there ahead. You can separate your leaves of radicchio, you can separate your leaves of cabbage-
KV: Make the dressing.
CM: You can make the dressing, you can segment the oranges, or at least take all of their peel off, so that you can just lop off big cheeks of orange or grapefruit, or whatever just before serving and assembling this. Shilpa, other thoughts?
SU: I love that salad. I would also like to call out the other salad that's in the issue, which is Hannah's maple and bacon fall chopped salad. I think this could be particularly great for people who might not always put salad on their table, and if you are doing it for the first time, this is a great introduction to salad on your Thanksgiving table, because it has a lot of inclusions that you might associate with Thanksgiving and fall. It has butternut squash, it has bacon walnuts, hard-boiled eggs. It's like a Cobb salad, but a holiday version of it.
KV: Autumnal, yeah.
SU: Yes.
KV: So fun, and it's pretty easy to make, too, because you can use store-bought chopped butternut squash. That goes on a sheet pan right alongside the bacon, so you're really just doing one roast-off.
SU: And then, you can roast the butternut squash ahead. You can cook the bacon ahead of time, you can boil the eggs ahead of time, do your nuts. The kale can be massaged and left overnight in the fridge, and be all the better for it. I just think it's a fun salad that is guaranteed to please a lot of people at the table.
CM: The only last thought I wanted to give is, just because it's Thanksgiving, it doesn't mean that a salad you spend two hours laboring and sweating over is going to be any better, more delicious, or easier on the eyes than one that you spend 15 minutes on. One thing I wanted to call out is, just a dressing. It's the three-minute red wine vinaigrette from our colleague Emma Laperruque from last year. I think what this can do is just showcase how a great balanced vinaigrette, this one uses a little bit of maple syrup just for really nice balance with red wine vinegar, in addition to some Dijon mustard and olive oil, you could put that on anything. You want to just do citrus? You could throw that on there. You found some incredible, beautiful Castelfranco radicchio at the farmer's market? It would be totally fair game. Just think of it as a wonderful balanced dressing that can work with whatever you might happen to have on hand. These are all great ideas, and again, salad belongs on your Thanksgiving table, and frankly, everybody's Thanksgiving table.
SU: I agree.
D: Great. I love these ideas. They sound wonderful, and I think my family will be super excited.
CM: Awesome. Have a wonderful salad full holiday, and thank you so much for calling in.
D: All right. Thanks.
CM: Kendra, Shilpa, Shilpa, Kendra, thank you so much. Thank you both so much for joining us this week.
KV: Absolutely.
SU: It was great to do all of this.
CM: Listeners, great news. We will be back next week with another episode chock-full of even more listener questions about Thanksgiving. We hope we helped you out with some menu planning today. Good luck with your prep lists, and we'll see you again next week.
If you have a dinner emergency on your hands, write to us at dinnersos@bonappetite.com, or leave us a voice message at (212) 286-SOS1. That's (212) 286-7071. We'd love to feature your question on the show. You can find the recipes mentioned on today's episode linked in our show notes and on the Epicurious app, brought to you by Condé Nast. Just search Epicurious in the app store and download today. If you're not yet a subscriber, you can sign up today for a 30-day free trial in the app or at BonAppetit.com.
If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating and review on your podcast app of choice, and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening to Dinner SOS I'm your host, Chris Morocco. My co-hosts this week are Shilpa Uskokovic and Kendra Vaculin. Our senior producer is Michele O'Brien. Peyton Hayes, our associate producer. Cameron Foos is our assistant producer, Jake Lummus is our studio engineer. This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macrosound. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's Head of Global Audio.